JONATHAN HUNT: Why, after 25 years, did you
change?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
I believe that all those walls that Islam built for
the last 1,400 years are not existing (sic) anymore.
They don’t recognize this. They built those walls
and made people ignorant because they’re afraid.
They didn’t want people to discuss anything about
the reality of Islam, about the big questions of
Islam and they asked their followers, the Muslims,
‘Don’t ask about those certain questions.’
But now, people have media. If the father closes the
door for his daughter not to leave the house, she’s
going to go behind her computer and travel the
world. So people easily can get information,
knowledge, searching (sic) engines, so it’s very,
very available for everybody to study about Islam,
about other religions. Not from the Islam point of
view, but from other points of view.
So for the next 25 years this is for sure going to
make huge change in the Muslim and the Arab world.
JONATHAN HUNT:
You speak from a unique perspective, a man who grew
up not just in an Islamic family but as part of an
organization seen by many people around the world as
an extreme force in Islam: Hamas. What is the
reality of Islam? You say people don’t see the
reality; What is the reality of Islam?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
There are two facts that Muslims don’t understand
... I’d say about more than 95 percent of Muslims
don’t understand their own religion. It came with a
much stronger language than the language that they
speak so they don’t understand it ... they rely only
on religious people to get their knowledge about
this religion.
Second, they don’t understand anything about other
religions. Christian communities live between
Muslims and they’re minority and they (would) rather
not to go speak out and tell people about Jesus
because it’s dangerous for them.
So, all their ideas about other religions on earth
are from Islamic perspectives. So those two
realities, most people don’t understand.
If people, if Muslims, start to understand their
religion — first of all, their religion — and see
how awful stuff is in there, they’ll start to figure
out, this can’t (be) ... because most religious
people focus on certain points of Islam. They have
many points that they are very embarrassed to talk
about.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Such as?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Such as Muhammad’s wives. You will never go to a
mosque and hear about anyone talking about
Muhammad’s wives, which is like more than 50 wives —
and nobody knows (this), by the way. If you ask the
majority of Muslims, they will not know this fact.
So they’re embarrassed to talk about this, but they
talk about the glory of Islam, they talk about the
victory, the victories that Muhammad made. So, when
people just like look at themselves and see they’re
defeated, they have ignorance, they’re not educated,
they’re not leading the world as they’re expected to
do. They’re think they want to get back to that
victory by doing the same, what Muhammad did, but
disregarding (sic) the timing. They forget that this
happened 1,400 years ago and it’s not going to
happen again.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Do they want to destroy Christianity?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Islam destroyed Christianity from the beginning and
Muslims don’t recognize that they stabbed
Christianity (in) its heart when they said that
Jesus wasn’t killed on the cross. They think that
they honor him in this way.
Basically, any Christians understand that this way,
(but Muslims) tell Jesus, okay, we don’t care, you
didn’t die for us. Someone sacrificed his life for
you, (but) you tell him, okay, you didn’t do it!
This is what Muslims are doing basically. But they
don’t understand that this is the most important
part of Christianity: the cross!
So, they are ignorant, they don’t know what they are
doing and it explains what an evil idea it is behind
this Islam.
JONATHAN HUNT:
What specific event or events began to change your
mind about Islam?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Since I was a child I started to ask very difficult
questions, even my family was telling me all the
time, ‘You’re a very difficult person and we were
having trouble answering your questions. Why are you
asking so many questions?’ This was from the
beginning, to be honest with you.
But I felt that everybody — and my father was a good
example for me because he was a very honest, humble
person, very nice to my mother, to us, and raised us
on the principle of forgiveness, okay? I thought
that everybody in Islam was like this.
When I was 18 years old, and I was arrested by the
Israelis and was in an Israeli jail under the
Israeli administration, Hamas had control of its
members inside the jail and I saw their torture;
(they were) torturing people in a very, very bad
way.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Hamas members torturing other Hamas members?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Hamas leaders! Hamas leaders that we see on TV now,
and big leaders, responsible for torturing their own
members. They didn’t torture me, but that was a
shock for me, to see them torturing people: putting
needles under their nails, burning their bodies. And
they killed lots of them.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Why were they torturing people?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Because they suspected that they had relations with
the Israelis and (were) co-operating with the
Israeli occupation against Hamas ... So hundreds of
people were victims for this, and I was a witness
for about a year for this torture. So that was a
huge change in my life. I started to open my (eyes),
but, the point (is) that I got that there are good
Muslims and bad Muslims. Good Muslims, such as my
father, and bad Muslims, like those Hamas members in
the jail torturing people.
So that was the beginning of opening my eyes wide.
JONATHAN HUNT:
You talk about the good Muslims, like your father,
yet you still now renounce the faith of your father.
Could you have not been a good Muslim?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Now, here’s the reality: after I studied
Christianity — which I had a big misunderstanding
about, because I studied about Christianity from
Islam, which is, there is nothing true about
Christianity when you study it from Islam, and that
was the only source.
When I studied the Bible carefully verse by verse, I
made sure that that was the book of God, the word of
God for sure, so I started to see things in a
different way, which was difficult for me, to say
Islam is wrong.
Islam is my father. I grew up for (one) father — 22
years for that father — and another father came to
me and told me, ‘I’m sorry, I’m your father.’ And I
was like, ‘What are you talking about? Like, I have
my own father, and it’s Islam!’ And the father of
Christianity told me, ‘No, I’m your father. I was in
jail, and this (Islam) is not your father.’
So basically this is what happened. It’s not easy to
believe this (Islam) is not your father anymore. So
I had to study Islam again from a different point of
view to figure out all the mistakes, the huge
mistakes and its effects, not only on Muslims — (of)
which I hated the values ... I didn’t like all those
traditions that make people’s lives more difficult —
but its effects also on humanity. On humanity!
People killing each other (in) the name of God.
So definitely I started to figure out the problem is
Islam, not the Muslims and those people — I can’t
hate them because God loved them from the beginning.
And God doesn’t create junk. God created good people
that he loved, but they’re sick, they have the wrong
idea. I don’t hate those people anymore but I feel
very sorry for them and the only way for them to be
changed (is) by knowing the word of God and the real
way to him.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Does it worry you that in saying these things — and
given your background and your words carrying extra
weight — there is a danger that you will increase
the difficulties, the hatred between Christians and
Muslims in the world right now?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
This could happen if a Christian person will go talk
to them about the reality of Islam. They put
Christians on the enemy list anyway, before you talk
to them about Islam. So if you go to them and tell
them, as a Christian, they will be offended
immediately and they will hate you and this will
definitely increase the vacuum between both
religions — but what made someone like me change?
Years ago, years ago, when I was there, God opened
my eyes, my mind also, and I became a completely
different person. So now, I can do this duty, while
you as Christians can help me do it, but maybe you
wouldn’t be able to. (Muslims) have no excuse now.
JONATHAN HUNT:
How difficult a process has this been for you to
effectively walk away from your family, leave your
home behind? How difficult is that?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Taking your skin off your bones, that’s what
happened. I love my family, they love me. And my
little brothers, they’re like my sons. I raised
them. Basically, it was the biggest decision in my
life.
I left everything behind me, not only family. When
you decide to convert to Christianity or any other
religion from Islam, it’s not (enough) to just say
goodbye and leave, you know? It’s not like that.
You’re saying goodbye to culture, civilization,
traditions, society, family, religion, God — what
you thought was God for so many years! So it’s not
easy. It’s very complicated. People think it’s that
easy, like it doesn’t matter. Now I’m here in the
U.S. and I got my freedom and it’s great, but at the
same time, nothing is like family, you know. To lose
your family —
JONATHAN HUNT:
Have you lost your family?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
My family is educated and it was very difficult for
them. They asked me many times, especially for the
first two days, to keep my faith to myself and not
go to the media and announce it.
But for me it was a duty from God to announce his
name and praise him (around) the world because my
reward is going to be that he’s going to do the same
for me. So I did it, basically, as a duty. I
(wonder) how many people can do what I can do today?
I didn’t find any.
So, I had to be strong about that. That was very
challenging. That was the most difficult decision in
my life and I didn’t do it for fun. I didn’t do it
for anything from this world. I did it only for one
reason: I believed in it. People are suffering every
day because of wrong ideas. I can help them get out
of this endless circle ... the track the devil
(laid) for them.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Have you spoken to your father recently?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
There is no chance to communicate with my father
because he’s in jail now and there is (sic) no
phones in the jail to communicate with him.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Have other members of your family told you how he’s
reacted?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
They’ve visited him from time to time. Till this
moment, I don’t know his reaction exactly but I’m
sure he’s very sad (over) a decision like this. But
at the same time, he’s going to understand, because
he knows me and he knows that I don’t make any
decisions without (believing strongly in them).
JONATHAN HUNT:
Is it making his life more difficult among fellow
Hamas members?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Definitely. My family, including my father, had to
carry this cross with me. It wasn’t their choice. It
was my choice, but they had to carry this cross with
me and I ask God — I pray for (my father), all my
brothers and my sisters here in this church, praying
all the time for them — ‘God, open their eyes, their
minds, to come to Christ. And bless them because
they had to carry this cross with me.’
JONATHAN HUNT:
Tell me about Hamas and the way it works. Is Hamas a
purely Islamic religious organization as you see it,
and that’s where, in your eyes, its faults lie, or
are there other parts of it which are a problem for
you? Or is Hamas a good organization? What is Hamas
to you?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
If we talk about people, there are good people
everywhere. Everywhere. I mean, good people that God
created.
Do they do their own things? Yes, they do their own
things. I know people who support Hamas but they
never got involved in terrorist attacks, for example
... They follow Hamas because they love God and they
think that Hamas represents God. They don’t have
knowledge, they don’t know the real God and they
never studied Christianity. But Hamas, as
representative for Islam, it’s a big problem.
The problem is not Hamas, the problem is not people.
The root of the problem is Islam itself as an idea,
as an idea. And about Hamas as an organization, of
course, the Hamas leadership, including my father,
they’re responsible; they’re responsible for all the
violence that happened from the organization. I know
they describe it as reaction to Israeli aggression,
but still, they are part of it and they had to make
decisions in those operations against Israel, (for)
which there was the killing of many civilians.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Do you believe Israel blameless in the conflict?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Occupation is bad. I can’t say Israel — I’m not
against any nation. We can’t say Israelis, we can’t
say Palestinians, we’re talking about ideas. Israel
has the right to defend itself, nobody can (argue)
against this. But sometimes they use (too much)
aggression against civilians. Sometimes many
civilians were killed because those soldiers weren’t
responsible enough, how they treat people at the
checkpoints.
My message even to the Israeli soldiers: at least
treat people in a good way at the checkpoints. You
don’t have to look really bad and it’s not about
nations, it’s about just wrong ideas on both sides
and the only way for two nations really to get out
of the endless circle is to know the principles that
Jesus brought to this earth: grace, love,
forgiveness. Without this, they will never be able
to move on, or break this endless circle.
JONATHAN HUNT:
You’ve seen your father jailed, you’ve been in
prison yourself. You’ve seen Hamas carry out acts of
terror against Israelis, and yet you say everybody
needs to rise above that?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Definitely. This is the only choice. Nobody has
magic power to do something for the Middle East. No
one. You can ask any politician here in the U.S.,
you can ask any Palestinian politician or Arab
politician, Israeli leaders; no one, no one can do
anything. Even if they believe in peace now: they’re
part of the game.
They’re part of the trick. They can’t, even if you
find a brave person, like Rabin, who was called by
an Israeli to make peace with the Palestinians and
give them a state, no one, even if you find a strong
leader, they can’t do this. You can’t force an
independent country to give another country
independence. (Especially when) the other country
wants to destroy it.
Everybody is hurt. Israeli soldiers, they lost their
friends. Palestinians, they lost their children,
their fathers. (There are) many people in prison
still, and many people were killed. Thousands. So
everybody will never forget this. If they want to
keep looking to the past, they will never get out of
this circle. The only way to start (is just by)
moving on. They were born under the occupation as
Palestinians.
The last two generations, it’s not their choice. The
new generations from Israel — if we say disregarding
the existence of Israel is right or wrong, what’s
the guilt of those people who were born in Israel
and they have no other country to go to? It’s their
country now, that’s how they see it. And they are
going to keep their resistance and defense against
whomever. (They will) say, ‘Get out of this land!’
So the only way is for both nations to start to
understand the grace, love and forgiveness of God,
to be able to get out of this.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Do you believe that Israel can ever strike a peace
deal with Hamas?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
There is no chance. Is there any chance for fire to
co-exist with the water? There is no chance. Hamas
can play politics for 10 years, 15 years; but ask
any one of Hamas’ leaders, ‘Okay, what’s going to
happen after that? Are you just going to live and
co-exist with Israel forever?’ The answer is going
to be no ... unless they want to do something
against the Koran. But it’s their ideology and they
can’t just say ‘We’re not going to do it.’ So there
is no chance. It’s not about Israel, it’s not about
Hamas: it’s about both ideologies. There is no
chance.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Aren’t you terrified that somebody is going to try
to kill you for saying these things — which would be
approved of according to parts of the Koran?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
They got to kill my ideas first, (and) that’s it,
they’re already out. So how are they going to kill
my idea? How are they going to kill the opinions
that I have? ... They can kill my body, but they
can’t kill my soul.
JONATHAN HUNT:
You’re not afraid?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
As a human, you know, I can be very brave now, I’m
not thinking about it at this moment and I feel that
God is on my side. But if this will be the
challenge, I ask God to give me enough strength.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Have you been threatened?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
No, not really. Honestly, most Muslims and Muslim
leaders here in the U.S. community, European
communities, they are trying to get ahold of me.
They are calling my famiily, my mother, and asking
for my contacts. They are telling her, ‘We want to
help him.’
JONATHAN HUNT:
They think you need help?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Yeah, they think that Christians took advantage of
me, and this is completely wrong. I’ve been a
Christian for a long time before they knew, or
anyone knew. I love Jesus, I followed him for many
years now. It wasn’t a secret for most of the time,
and this time I just did it to glorify the name of
God and praise him.
They’re not dealing with a regular Muslim. They know
that I’m educated, they know that I studied, they
know that I studied Islam and Christianity. When I
made my decision, I didn’t make it because someone
did magic on me or convinced me. It was completely
my decision.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Do you miss Ramallah?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
Definitely. You’ve been there and you know how a
wonderful country (it is). Very, very beautiful.
It’s a very small spot and it has everything — this
is why people are fighting for that piece of land. I
definitely miss Ramallah. Jereusalem. The Old City.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Do you believe you will ever be able to go back
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
I think I belong to that land, and sooner or later
I’m going to go back, no matter what. If they want
to kill me, they (will) do whatever they want to do.
I have a family there, they love me, they completely
support me now with my decisions. Maybe they don’t
want me to talk to the media but they believe that I
made a decision that I completely believe in. So
they support me, so I love my family. I’m going to
go back there again one day. I love my town.
JONATHAN HUNT:
Do you think you’ll ever go back to a Middle East
living in peace?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
There will be a 100-person peace when Jesus comes
back, when he judges everybody. His kingdom’s going
to be 1,000 years and it’s going to be completely
peaceful and it’s going to be the kingdom of God.
JONATHAN HUNT:
What is your basic message to any Muslim listening
to this right now?
MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF:
My message to them is, first of all, to open
their minds. They were born to Muslim families —
this is how they got Islam and this is just like ...
any other religion, like growing up (in) a Christian
family, or growing up (in) a Jewish family.
So my point is that I want those people to open
their eyes, their minds, to start to understand and
imagine that they weren’t born for a Muslim famiily.
And use their minds.
Why did God give them minds? Open their hearts. Read
the Bible. Study their religion. I want to open the
gate for them, I want them to be free. They will
find a good life on earth just by following God —
and they’re also going to guarantee the other life.
